Our Studio Guest is Holger Schäfer, Institute for Economic Research Cologne.DW-TV: Mister Schäfer, working hard with minimal payz would you say that this is an exception, or is this everyday reality for many job workers here in Germany? Holger Schäfer: Well I don’t know, but I think there are measures of the law to combat these forms of conditions in the workplace, so I think there's something we can do about this with our current framework of law. DW-TV: But many people doesn't seem to know about these measures of law. Do you think that counselling, or that there's just not enough advice given to people in that position? Holger Schäfer: Well of course you can seek advice from lawyers, or from unions or other institutions. DW-TV: I should think a worker in that position would not take a lawyer. It's probably highly unlikely that you yourself would ever get into such a situation. But let's just say you lost your job. Eventually you would have to face the Hartz IV perspective, that scheme. Is that something that would worry you? Holger Schäfer: Well, I certainly wouldn't work without pay. And so if the consequence of this behavior is that I would get fired, then OK, I have to live from transfers. DW-TV: Is this something that what the legislators had in mind when they introduced Hartz IV?" Holger Schäfer: Well we have to differentiate between Hartz IV — which is a new form of social security -- and the lower sector of the labor market and the mini-jobs. Mini-jobs are a special form of part-time employment, while Hartz IV is a form of social security for people with no income. DW-TV: But mini-jobs are part of it, and they were also introduced in order to give people a chance to get back into full-time labor, to get a proper job. But right now it looks as if Hartz 4 was introduced to deliver cheap labour to employers, rather than helping the unemployed to get back into a regular job! And then: Is it legal that an employer can stop his staff from taking on more...